In Bill Moyers’s interview with Joseph Campbell (on the first disc of the series), they talk about how the challenges which the hero must face have evolved from physical monsters towards spiritual difficulties (drawing on Star Wars for quite a bit of their discussion).I took a lot from the discussion as a whole, but here are a couple of quotes I particularly enjoyed:
the ‘evolution’ of the hero figure
Moyers: “Do these stories of the hero vary from culture to culture?”
Campbell: “Well, it’s the degree of the illumination that… – or action – that makes them different. There is the typical, early culture hero, who goes around slaying monsters. Now that is in a period of history when man is shaping his world out of a wild, savage, unshaped world – well, it has another shape, but it’s not the shape for man; he goes around killing monsters.”
Moyers: “So the hero evolves over time, like most other concepts and ideas and…”
Campbell: “Well, he evolves as the culture evolves. Now, Moses is a hero figure, in his ascent of the mountain, his meeting of Yahweh on the summit of the mountain, and coming back with the rules for the formation of a whole new society. That’s a hero act: departure, fulfillment, return, and on the way, there are adventures that can be paralleled also in other traditions.”
… they go on to discuss the figures of Jesus, Mohammed, the Buddha, and how these are related in terms of the hero cycle, and the trials they undergo…
Campbell: “…and what all the myths have to deal with is ‘transformation of consciousness’: that you’re thinking in ‘this’ way, and you have now to think in ‘that’ way.”
Moyers: “Well, how is the consciousness transformed?”
Campbell: “By trials.”
Moyers: “…the tests that the hero undergoes…”
Campbell: “…tests or certain illuminating revelations. Trials and revelations are what it’s all about.”
Moyers: “Well, who in society today is making any heroic myth at all for us? Do movies do this? Do movies create heroes?”
Campbell: “I don’t know… [Campbell discusses his own experience of movies and his own admiration of Douglas Fairbanks as a hero figure (and Leonardo Da Vinci) who] were models or roles that came to me.”
Moyers: “Does a movie like Star Wars fill some of that need for the spiritual adventure of the hero?”
Campbell: “Oh it’s perfect: it does the cycle perfectly. It’s not a simple morality play. It has to do with the powers of life and their inflection through the action of man. One of the wonderful things, I think, about this adventure into space, is that the narrator, the artist, the one thinking up the story, is in a field that is not covered by our own knowledges, you know. There was, … much of the adventure in the old stories is where they go into regions that no one’s been in before. Well, we’ve now conquered the planet, so there are no empty spaces for the imagination to go forth and fight its own… war, you know, with .. powers. And that was the first thing that I felt, that there was a whole new realm for the imagination to open out and live its forms.”
Moyers: “Do you, when you look at something like Star Wars, recognise some of the themes of the hero throughout mythology?”
Campbell: “Well, I think that George Lucas was using standard mythological figures….”
…
the landscape of the hero and the hero’s character
Campbell: “The achievement of the hero is one that he is ready for and it’s really a manifestation of his character. And it’s amusing that the landscape and the conditions of the environment match the readiness of the hero; the adventure that he’s ready for is the one that he gets.”
In ensuing discussion, they get further into both comparative and psychoanalytic analysis of Star Wars. Campbell explains the ‘threshold’ of the hero cycle, as well as the place of the ‘consciousness’ and ‘subconsciousness’ in this cycle.
Changing the system: Luke Skywalker
[Having discussed Darth Vader and his difference from and threat to Luke Skywalker,] Campbell explains: “[Darth Vader:] the man who’s gone over to the intellectual side. [He isn’t] living in terms of humanity; he’s living in terms of a system. And this is the threat to our lives: we all face it. We all operate in our society in relation to a system. Now is the system gonna eat you up and relieve you of your humanity, or are you going to be able to use the system to human purposes?”
Moyers: “Would the hero of a thousand faces help us to answer that question – about how to change the system so that we are not serving it?”
Campbell: “I don’t think it would help you to change the system, but it would help you to live in the system as a human being.”
Moyers: “By doing what?”
Campbell: “Well, like Luke Skywalker not going over, but resisting its… impersonal claims.”
Moyers: “But I can hear someone out there in the audience saying ‘well, that’s all well and good for the imagination of a George Lucas or for the scholarship of a Joseph Campbell, but that doesn’t… isn’t what happens in my life’.”
Campbell: “You bet it does…. The world’s full of people who have… stopped listening to themselves. In my own life, I’ve had many opportunities to commit myself to a system and to go with it and to obey its requirements. My life has been that of a maverick: I would not submit.”
Ref: The power of myth [DVD videorecording] / Joseph Campbell with Bill Moyers ; a production of Apostrophe S Productions, Inc., in association with Alvin H. Perlmutter, Inc. [and] Public Affairs Television, Inc. ; presented by WNET, New York, WTTW, Chicago ; executive producers, Joan Konner, Alvin H. Permutter ; series producer, Catherine Tatge. Silver Spring, MD : Athena, [2010].